The Extraordinary Educators Podcast

The Power of High Expectations and Active Listening with Professor John Hattie

• Sari Laberis • Season 6 • Episode 3

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Unlock the secrets to creating more engaging and effective learning environments through the power of high expectations and active listening. In our latest episode, we sit down with the esteemed education researcher, Professor John Hattie, who shares groundbreaking insights from his analysis of 20,000 hours of classroom instruction. Learn how to transform your teaching approach by reducing your talk time and amplifying meaningful student participation. Professor Hattie offers practical strategies to enhance your listening skills, including techniques like paraphrasing students' comments to ensure a deeper understanding of their thought processes and learning needs.

Discover how setting high expectations and continuously challenging students can lead to significant growth and sustained motivation. This episode is a must-listen for educators gearing up for a new school year, providing actionable tips and insights to keep students engaged and pushing their limits. Join us and explore the transformative impact of balancing talking and listening in the classroom, creating an environment where every student has the opportunity to thrive.

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Sari Laberis:

Welcome back to the Extraordinary Educators podcast. It's Sari, and today I'm so thrilled to bring you a conversation with Professor John Hattie. John Hattie is a researcher in education whose interests include performance indicators, measurement models and teaching and learning evaluation. He became known to the wider audience with his two books, Visible Learning and Visible Learning for Teachers. Visible Learning synthesizes more than 800 meta-studies covering more than 80 million students. According to Hattie, Visible Learning is the result of 30 years of research about what works best for learning in schools. He also serves as a technical advisor for i-Ready, as well as the chair of the board of the Australian Institute for Teachers and School Leaders.

Sari Laberis:

In March 2023, he released Visible Learning, the sequel, a synthesis of over 2,100 meta-analyses relating to achievement, and today Professor Hattie and I really dive into student participation and high expectations for students that teachers have. And, of course, these two topics are important throughout the year, but they are so, so important now more than ever, as we think about COVID recovery, as we think about getting to know our students and as we think about what it really means to increase the student ratio in the classroom. And we had a really interesting conversation about how it's not just about talking. It's not I talk, you talk. It's really about what you're doing when you're not talking.

Sari Laberis:

Which is listening, and I'm excited to hear your thoughts on this episode because it really got me thinking about how this could have shifted my mindset when I was in the classroom In terms of high expectations. We want to hear from you, how are you showing your students that you have high expectations this year? So here is my conversation with Professor John Hattie. Enjoy, Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to see you and have you back.

John Hattie:

Good to be here again, Sari.

Sari Laberis:

Awesome. Well, let's just dive right in. So you mentioned that teachers talk 89% of the time in classroom and I think that's probably pretty shocking for most people to see. What strategies can teachers use to reduce their talking time and increase the student-teacher ratio?

John Hattie:

Well, yeah, we got that figure from an analysis of 20,000 hours of classroom instruction. And there's a conspiracy, as well. Students above average prefer teachers talk more because that's the game they're a winner at. They want to see the performance, they want to hear the facts, they want to understand what the teacher values and they're very good at discerning that. No one's really come up with the right percentage, but I'm not sure there is the right percentage, but it sure ain't 90% of the time.

John Hattie:

The first thing probably teachers maybe listen, and I think it's fascinating that there is hundreds of books on teacher talk, on student voice, but there's virtually nothing on listening. And I think it's fascinating that there is hundreds of books on teacher talk, on student voice, but there's virtually nothing on listening. And I think there's an incredible set of skills relating to listening. In fact, Lynn Sharon and I are just finishing a book on listening, trying to make the message that that's something we should do more. Like, if you take the line that I do, that the most effective teachers are very nosy. They want to know how the kids are thinking, they want to know what kids are up to, what's going on inside their mind. They have brilliant listeners and so I think it's trying to get that balance right.

John Hattie:

Any teacher who doesn't believe it's 90%, I invite you to take a video and just get to do a quick analysis. We do talk a lot. Kids, many of the kids not all of them, kids below average want us to shut up. They want us to listen to how they're thinking. Why are they getting it right? How can they do it better? And so I think that's the first thing I'd look at in terms of understanding exactly what your talk rate is, and then try to switch to listening. It's quite a remarkable effect when kids realize that you're listening to them. Like PISA found for 30 million kids, 40% of kids say the teacher doesn't know if I'm learning or not. Hey, come on, let's stop, let's shut up, let's do some more listening.

Sari Laberis:

That's really powerful, rather than because you're right. There's so much best practices out there about teacher talk and ratio and all that. But rather than thinking of it, just as talking, what are you doing when you're not talking? And you're listening, right, and it's so hard, especially now with everyone on their phones and getting people's attention, and I wonder it's hard for me even, you know just having a conversation with someone. We're so distracted and everyone is is wanting each other's time and so, and so just really thinking about listening versus me, talking versus them talking it's really powerful.

John Hattie:

And I'm an academic. It's 100% of the time talking. So, yeah, I have the same problem and I constantly have to say stop. And I think it's a skill that I have worked out. I worked in counseling many years ago and listening is an essential skill there. And it's not only listening, it's demonstrating that you have listened. And that's the real skill, and that's what the students want you to do.

Sari Laberis:

Do you have any ways that teachers can do that to really demonstrate they're listening to their students?

John Hattie:

Well, sometimes it's starting with, "Is this what I hear you say? Have I got it right? Let me paraphrase what I think you're asking me." because many of the time when people come to us, whether they be students or whether they be our peers working out what the problem is is the hardest part, and sometimes the problem they present is not the problem they have, and that requires really good listening, and so it's that sort of responsive listening where you demonstrate and constantly check. So, Sari, does that make sense to you? Yes, and if I was listening to you now and hear you saying what you said to me before, was that you, in everyday life, with cell phones etc. We do do a lot of talking, and so I'm trying to demonstrate through my paraphrasing. Now it's more than that. It's not just paraphrasing and that's it. It's the start of the conversation.

Sari Laberis:

Can you how powerful that would be too, if teachers are modeling that for students just as best practice right in society. ? you know, check in with people to make sure you're understanding what they're saying, and if we can have all the teachers who are listening their students understand that that's an important, just life skill, we'd be in a far better place, I think.

John Hattie:

Oh look, surely the greatest sign of respect to another person is demonstrating that you heard.

Sari Laberis:

Yes.

John Hattie:

It's the fundamental problem of equity. It's the fundamental problem of diversity. It's the fundamental problem of many kids in classrooms. They don't feel I've heard. That's all I'm asking for, listen.

Sari Laberis:

Yep, Well, switching gears a bit, but it kind of has to do with feeling seen and heard in the classroom. Let's talk a little bit about high expectations and what you'd recommend, or how I guess educators can effectively set and maintain high expectations for all students, not just the ones that need the most growth or the ones that are already above level, but really how they can think about it in terms of their entire classroom.

John Hattie:

The simple proposition here, Sari, is that if you aim for two years growth in a year's instruction, you're more likely to get it than if you aim for one year's growth. And all the work that Christine Ruby- Davies and others have done on this is that if you think of high expectation teaching, it's kind of like you said there, the minute you dumb down anything, the kids know and they know that you're not expecting a lot of them. Now it does require a lot of rigor, because sometimes even I just want someone to take the foot off the pedal. I don't want to invest in this anymore. But great teachers are ones that encourage, enhance, motivate kids to put in that effort, to put in that extra mileage to get that. And so what I'd be saying for any teacher is you know, look at the grade norms, aim above it for all the kids. Here's the devastating part. When Christine asks teachers at the end of the first month of the year, supposedly after the teachers have got to know their students, where do you think all the kids are at the end of the year? Some teachers rate them lower than what they actually are at the beginning of the year and successfully bring them down. Now, not a lot, but it does happen and that's devastating. And so no, and the other part of it is that teachers who have 53 excuses why they can't have an impact have very low impacts on kids.

John Hattie:

Now, I know I'm putting pressure on teachers here, but all I'm doing is recognizing what the great teachers are doing now. They are quite strong and perseverant at having high expectations. They know that kids can achieve more and it's really fascinating In the study we did a few years ago where we looked at a group of about 800 adults and we asked them to remember their best teacher they ever had, and why. And it was two reasons: Either that teacher turned you on to their passion and/ or that teacher saw something in you you didn't see in yourself. That's high expectations. Our job is to bring the best out of kids. For years, I've argued that helping kids reach their potential is an incredibly low aspiration. Our job is to help kids exceed what they think their potential is. And I ask you, Sari, who is the best teacher you ever had and does that model fit?

Sari Laberis:

Yeah, Absolutely, and whenever you ask anyone that you're right, you're so right. My favorite teacher was my eighth grade math teacher, because before that I despised math. Name the teacher what was his or her name?

John Hattie:

Oh, Mr. DeBay. Mr. DeBay, have you ever contacted him and told?

Sari Laberis:

Yeah, of course I told him as soon as I went into teaching. I always want to appreciate the feedback loop as an educator and as a person, right? So I made sure he knew that it was just the way he taught. I finally understood math and it clicked for me and I realized that everyone can be good at math and it really motivated me.

John Hattie:

I'm going to challenge you here. Obviously, I don't know Mr DeBay at all. I don't believe it's got anything to do with the way he taught.

Sari Laberis:

You think it was his expectations that we could all learn and exceed?

John Hattie:

I'm asking you, what else was it? I bet there's a lot of teachers who taught like him. What was the secret ingredient? You said you weren't interested in math. You got turned on to math. How did he turn you on to math?

Sari Laberis:

He made it engaging. He related it to the real world. I remember distinctly he used different colors when he taught to show us the different parts of the problem and made me feel like I understood why we were learning what we were learning, how it would help me later in life.

John Hattie:

That's a great illustration of high expectations. And so when you ask, I like to talk about high expectation teaching, high expectation learning and you watch kids. They are incredibly into high expectations. They have incredibly high expectations of how they're going to perform on the football field, on the ice hockey field, in their computer games, in their social life. Why can't they have high expectations in their schoolwork?

Sari Laberis:

Yeah, that's so true. As we close out here, before we end our time together, do you have any last parting advice or anything you're thinking about as teachers are getting to know their students right now, in the beginning of the school year?

John Hattie:

Yeah, I think right at the beginning of the school year I would hope that every teacher has pretty clear high expectations of what they're going to achieve that year, and I would love to see it that every kid is going to get at least two years growth for a year's input. Now I know you might not get there for every one of them, but you're more likely to get there if you start with that premise. I also want to note that the fundamental issue with high expectations and engaging kids in learning is challenge. Kids want to be challenged. Kids are improvement agents. They want to improve, they want to be challenged. Kids are improvement agents. They want to improve, they want to be challenged.

John Hattie:

But here's the problem None of them come to your class to learn that which they already know. And that's the fundamental problem with too much schooling. 40% to 50% of everything taught in every lesson, all the kids know. It's boring, it's just learning. The fundamental social and emotional problem in the school world is it's boring because there's no challenge. So I invite you to challenge your students this year. Find out what they can do now and challenge them, and if that's your mantra, if that's how you think, I think you've got all the makings of a high expectation class that's truly going to make a difference.

Sari Laberis:

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for that, and thank you again for your time and sharing all your expertise with us.

John Hattie:

Thank you, Sari. Thanks for talking.

Sari Laberis:

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